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Matthew Fisher always felt like an outsider. He struggled to make friends and was overcome by mood swings. By age 13, he turned to drugs and alcohol to cope. His father, Steven, watched from the sidelines, desperately trying to help his son. This is the story of how a father and son found recovery and healed their rocky relationship.

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Back From Broken is a show about how we are all broken sometimes, and how we need help from time to time. If you’re struggling, you can find a list of resources at&nbsp;<a href="http://backfrombroken.org/">BackFromBroken.org</a>.

Host: Vic Vela Lead producer:&nbsp;Rebekah Romberg Editor:&nbsp;Jo Erickson Additional editorial support: Erin Jones, Kibwe Cooper, Emily Williams, Andrew Villegas Music: Daniel Mescher and Brad Turner with additional music from Universal Production Music Executive producers: Brad Turner, Kevin Dale Thanks also to Rachel Estabrook, Hart van Denburg, Jodi Gersh, Clara Shelton, Arielle Wilson, Kim Nguyen.

<a href="http://backfrombroken.org/">BackFromBroken.org</a> On Twitter: @VicVela1

Vic Vela: Just want to let you know that this episode contains some strong language. Please be advised.&nbsp;

When I was a kid, I was a lot for my parents to handle. I mean all kids have their moments, right? But, when you add drugs and alcohol, it would always make things interesting. That’s for sure. Like, this one time. I was like 16, and I had been out partying all night. I passed out near a river. And when I woke up the next morning I was sore and bloodied and realized I had gotten into a fight. And I was still drunk. And who was left to deal with me? My mom and dad. I know that my drug addiction was really hard on them. And you know, there’s a lot of other parents out there who can relate to seeing their kid suffer. Steven Fisher is one of them.&nbsp;

Steven Fisher: As parents, we all have those moments where we wake up at two o'clock in the morning in a cold sweat thinking of how we screwed up our kids. I dunno if any parent I've ever talked to who has not had some of those moments. And they get all of our dysfunction, but they get our good parts too. And I have to say this journey has been, it hasn't been easy, but it's been absolutely beautiful. And I wouldn't trade it for the world. But we've, we've earned it the hard way. We've had to go through hell and back to really get to a better place today.

Vic: Steven and his wife are therapists. And while they often would help other families work through their issues, their own son Matt was struggling with drugs and alcohol as a teenager. Matt felt that getting drunk and high helped him control his mood swings.

Matthew Fisher: It was like trying to self-soothe and I was like, you know, I don't, I don't want to be so angry anymore and I don't want to feel so outta control.

Vic: Addiction really is a family disease. It affects everyone in the household. And if you’re a parent of a child struggling with addiction and destructive behavior, maybe you’ll hear your own family’s story in the Fishers’. Today, we’re going to hear from Steven and Matt Fisher, about the ways Matt’s struggles impacted their family, how Matt found help, and the ways they’re now working to help other families who struggle.

I’m Vic Vela. I’m a journalist, a storyteller and a recovering drug addict. And this is “Back from Broken” from Colorado Public Radio. Stories about the highest highs, the darkest moments and what it takes to make a comeback.

Steven and his wife Liz welcomed their first son Matthew into the world in the early 90s.

Steven: When he came out as a baby, his energy was so bright and so intense, always asking questions, always wanting to know the truth, never settling for less. And then when he was about two years old, his brothers, his twin brothers were born and he got knocked off the throne really hard and he was really pissed off about that. And then we had all the sibling rivalry and this just kind of morphed into more and more kind of anger and hurt and feeling left out over the years. And then that intensity kind of took a darker turn, and then we had to sort through all that kind of stuff.

Vic: Matt, thinking back, you know, your, your dad said you were a smart kid, lots of questions. When you think back on being a little kid, is there a particular memory that stands out, around that period?

Matthew: We moved from Mississippi to Colorado when I was five, so I think like growing up in Mississippi, you know, we had our family around us. We always had our grandparents and just a lot of support. And I think moving out here, I kind of like lost my best friend and then my …. I always kind of struggled to meet new people. My brothers were very social. Yeah, moving out here was just very dysregulating and, um … You know, I, I made, you know, some good friends out here as, you know, in like kindergarten, first grade. But yeah, I was always just kind of like, I'm not really belonging here. And, um, you know, kind of contrasting that with my very social brothers. So I just felt like kind of an outcast.

Vic: That isolation weighed heavily on Matt. And as he got older, it was hard for him to understand why he couldn’t fit in. He liked the same things other kids did, like fire trucks and Hot Wheels. But he had a lot of mood swings and anger – especially when puberty hit. There was one day when his temper really boiled over.

Steven: So Matthew was about 12 or 13, and this is when he really started to feel the pinch of that teenage years. And that emotion, that anger and that heard of feeling left out with his brothers kind of got worse. And so I was doing a grand opening of my counseling office, and Matthew and his brothers were playing in the parking lot with another friend.&nbsp;

Matthew: You know, it was like one of my, one of my best friends would like always, uh, come over after school. And I was, um, at this point in my life, I was frankly just kind of a dick. Kind of like slowly losing everyone around me. And, um, it was kind of the point where like, you know, they, frankly, you know, they didn't want to hang out with me. I think that was, looking back, reasonable for the way I was acting. But I, I think in the moment I was just like seeing them as like, kind of stealing my best friend and, um, like, feeling really lonely and, it's this whole thing of like, oh, they're getting all the attention and I'm like, kind of left on my own. So it just kind of built up. I just kinda had this moment where I threw my brother off the bike and, um, just kind of this, it just felt really uncontrollable and, um, impulsive. And I definitely had a lot of mood, mood issues going on and, um, just would kind of had these like really, really uncontrollable rages.&nbsp;

Steven: And this is again, during the grand opening of my counseling thing, so I'm sure everybody's looking at the counselor like, what's your kid doing? Beating up your other kid? And right across the park, my wife's boss was walking across the parking lot to our grand opening and saw it all happen and broke it up.

Matthew: And, uh, I think like after it happened and I ran home and I just started crying and it was like, I didn't … I felt really bad about it and I was like, you know, I didn't want to hurt my brother. And it was just like feeling outta control. And, um, yeah, I remember like kinda my parents coming home and like, about to yell at me and then I just started crying. And, uh, yeah. So I think the biggest thing was like just feeling angry and outta control and like, kind of scared of not being able to control my actions.

Steven: And as parents, it was hard for us because one of Matthew's core wounds or core emotional issues was feeling abandoned, feeling alone, feeling out. And we, Liz and I just knew, we just knew that that pounded his core issues really hard and how much he was hurting that caused him to act out like that. And so we were feeling for him, even though we were also feeling for our other son who had just gotten beat up and was really traumatized as well. And so we were trying to be there for both of 'em. That was a hard moment.

Vic: And, and Matt, I gotta say like, I, I had a lot of behavioral problems when I was young too. Like going back to kindergarten, mouthing off to the teacher and getting kicked out of the class. Like the principal's office had like a wing dedicated to me. Like, it was just like – I was bad. And I can relate to that rage, that rage where you were just like the Incredible Hulk. But then that, um, that the worst feeling in the world is that remorse when it settles in because you knew, gosh, if I could just go back and, and do it over again. Right.

Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think about that a lot.

Vic: Well, and Steven, you are still a human being, you're still human. And humans still react in ways and, and, and so I gotta ask like, this was a big day for you.

Vic: Yeah. I mean, you had to have been pissed off.

Steven: Therapists are people too. And I think more than pissed off, I was probably feeling shame that all of my family dysfunction was exposed to the public, but also just the fact that feeling like as a dad, what could I have done differently? So we didn't get to that position in the first place.&nbsp;

Vic: Matt knew he was out of control that day. And he was tired of feeling so angry all the time. So when his neighbor introduced him to marijuana when he was in middle school, Matt loved the way it made him feel.

Matthew: it did give me a feeling of being more in control. And then, one kid was selling like Oxycontin on the school bus in seventh grade. And so we, you know, I kind of like … I started like, you know, developing this reputation and a lot of my friends' parents were telling me like, oh, like, you know, you can't hang out with this kid. I started hanging out with, uh, you know, just like a rougher crowd.&nbsp;

And, you know, I remember kind of, uh, summer of, into into eighth grade, I was just like hanging out with this, you know, these two girls and my friend's older brother that were just using a lot and, you know, was like, just spent the whole summer getting really fucked up and yeah. Doing a lot of painkillers and, um, drinking a lot and smoking a lot.

And my dad actually found me drunk, like passed that on this trail by our house. Um, so I think that was kinda like a moment where they were …&nbsp;

Steven: That was a hard moment. Matthew: Yeah. They were like, oh shit. Like this is, this is, you know, kinda a little outta control.

Matthew: Yeah, I was … Yeah, I got really drunk. Like we kind of were pre-drinking at a friend's house and then there was like this spot in the woods called The Couch. Like all the cool kids were hanging out there. And there were some older kind of more like 20-somethings that were like, I thought were really cool, but they were kind of like these burnouts that worked at, you know … Like just kind of selling drugs and cigarettes to kids and high schoolers. Um, so that was kinda like a big deal for me, getting invited to this party in the woods. But yeah, I had too much to drink and, um, just kind of passed out. And I remember one kid put a cigarette on me and they were just kinda laughing and then I was like all fucked up and uh, they just kinda left me there.

You know, here I am having a good time with all these people and feeling kind of accepted. I'm in the, I'm cool and then everyone just kinda left, you know? And I'm just like, I can't even get up. And I'm like throwing up on the ground and I was, it was like, oh shit, where'd everyone go? And um, yeah. Yeah, I just feel like really, really like abandoned and like kind of all these, these new friends that I thought I'd made. I was, I was just like, oh, like I guess they didn't really care about me.

Vic: That’s hard. Steven, that's gotta be, I mean … Your son is passed out in the woods. Like, what do you remember about that?

Steven: Well, we knew there was something going on that day and I was looking for him. I was looking all over town. I'd heard about this spot in the woods and I went back there before. And, and so I, I thought I'd go back there again cause I figured they're probably back there. And I was going back there for the second or third time this time and turned off there. He was just passed out. It was a Saturday morning right on the trail – beside it. He was about, you know, a hundred yards off the, off the field. And, um, I, I was just feeling really heartbroken. I was feeling so heartbroken that he'd come to this [starting to cry]. And I remember Matthew's passed out and I just, um, picked him up and I carried him home. And I put him in his bed and just let him sleep it off. And I was just feeling so broken and I was feeling like, what – how have I contributed to getting here? What is, what is my responsibility for contributing to this? And how has our family gotten here?

And I just felt heartbroken from my son because in my eyes, Matthew's not this angry, aggressive stoner that's scaring other kids. He's this little two year old boy with so much joy in him. That’s the Matthew I have always known [crying]. And in those moments, all I saw was this two year old kid with such joy and I'm just, I was just thinking, where did that go?

Steven: And then we got through that moment and we went on. But it was, um, yeah, that was a hard day. That was a hard day.

Vic: [Breathes deeply] Hmm. Yeah. I'm sorry Steven, I mean, you're the dad, this is your boy, you know? Yeah.

Steven: And I'm also feeling like I've, I've really screwed him up.

Steven: I mean, we did with, and we were, honestly … Liz and I were good parents. We were great parents, but we weren't perfect. There are no perfect parents. We have our share of character defects and our mistakes and we're working on it. But really looking at my own character defects and own issues that have contributed to the problem. And that's what I want to say to all families and parents out there. Instead of playing the blame game, we all wanna look at our own part. Not to blame ourselves or criticize ourselves, but to own accountability and learn how to forgive ourselves and forgive our kids. ‘Cause our character defects don't ultimately define us. They're, they're patterns that we're stuck in. But if we want to do our own inner work, we can break free of those patterns and this whole process. But Matthew and I … Matthew's struggles was a wake up call for us to – as a family to really look at our own issues and to really heal and get better as a family. So our healing process wasn't just Matthew, it was all of us. It was me and Liz and our other sons growing and getting better and releasing our own shame and our own hurt. And that's ultimately what it's come down to over the years. And those moments don't ultimately define us. I think that was the lesson for me.

Vic: Steven and his wife Liz couldn’t figure out how to help Matt. He was still using drugs a lot. And, when he was in the 8th grade, he even got arrested at school for beating up another kid. When they were at one of Matt’s probation hearings, Steven decided it was time to lay down the law.&nbsp;

Steven: We were sitting about to go to court one day and one of his conditions of probation was, uh, he couldn't smoke any pot. And I know he had, but he got, he'd passed the UA. So I know he'd gotten away with it. And so we're sitting in that little room before we go into court and our lawyer's sitting there and I said, “Matthew, you need to tell the judge the truth and need to be honest with her.” And my lawyer said, “Steve, don't do it.” [Chuckles] I said, I said, “No, I got to, I'm sorry, I, I got to.” I said, “Matthew, you can tell the judge or I'm going to.” And, and he did, but he said he didn't trust me after that. He didn't trust me for a couple years after that. And but then…

Vic: So you, you told the judge that he had pot?

Steven: Well, I said either he has to yes … That he smoked pot while he was on probation, breaking the conditions of his court probation. And, and so I said, either you tell her or I'm going to. And so he did tell her. I wanted it to come from him. He got some consequences out of it, but it wasn't the end of the world. But that kind of stubbornness that sometimes maybe I come on a little too strong. Maybe I'm not strong enough. It's just a, it's a hard line to walk. Yeah.

Vic: Finding that balance as a dad, you know? Yeah. Gosh. Matt, how did you feel? Did, did you understand why your dad did this?

Matthew: I, yeah, no, I, I do [laughter]. I do now. I mean, I, and I think, you know, in the back of my mind I got it, but I was just so pissed off and like scared and like, um, yeah, I think, I think it was like, um, you know, made me want to like hide stuff more.

Vic: Yeah. So, Matt continued to drink and use drugs for years after that. Until one night he finally had his wake up call. I'll tell you about it after this break. One night when he was 18, Matt took LSD with some friends. But he was having a really bad trip. His friends took his keys and Matt left – without a coat or shoes – in the middle of winter. He ended up sitting inside his freezing car all alone. He was trying to figure out who to call for help.

Matthew: I remember going through my phone, just like tripping. Like, I don't have anybody. You know, like, I don't … I can't really count on any of these people. I don't trust any of these people. And, uh, yeah, just feeling like I, I had been given this amazing gift of life and just family and, and love. And then I really squandered it. It was just a sense that I had pushed everyone away and I didn't have anyone. And being like, I fucked up here. I have nothing.&nbsp;

Vic: Finally, Matt decided to call his parents.&nbsp;

Steven: And so me and my wife Liz are driving across town. Liz is on the phone with him and he's trying, in his state of mind, he's trying to give us directions to where he is. And we're, by some lucky chance I was driving. She, Liz, is telling me which direction to go. And about 30 minutes later we pulled in the parking lot of some apartment complex in Aurora. And we, and we pulled up and there was his car and he was sitting in it. And it was so pitiful because he had a light t-shirt on, no shoes sitting in the driver's seat of his car. Just shivering, just absolutely shivering in the snow out there.

And I remember we pulled up the beside of me, looked over at us. The look of relief on his face was like, oh my God, thank God you're here. And, and we got him in the car and we gave him a big hug. And Liz drove his car home and I was driving him home. And on the way home he kept on saying to me, he said, Dad, the love is all gone. Where did it go? Where did it go? And of course he's tripping hard. He was tripping hard and, and it's not a good experience. And, and I said, Matthew, the love is right here. It never left.&nbsp;

Steven: That's the space [breathes deeply] that Liz and I always held for Matthew is that the love is always here. It never left. Even if you don't see it in the current moment, it's still here. We are still here. You're a beautiful, beautiful person. Even if you don't see that right now. And that's the space we're always holding for him, even when he couldn't hold that for himself [speaking with difficulty].&nbsp;

Vic: I mean, how powerful Matt, what, what did you mean when you said I lost the love?

Matthew: I feel like as a kid, I just, I had this really profound sense of like, love and connection and like, just – yeah. I just had this, all these supportive people around me. And I think I always was very empathetic and I always really cared about other people. Um, like my, my dad likes to tell the story of like, when they're reading like, uh, “Christmas Carol” when I'm like five or six and, uh, you know, it gets to the part about Tiny Tim and he can't go to the doctor. I'm like, well, why can't he go to the doctor for free? So [chuckles] I, you know, I was always … I really love my brothers too, kind of, even though I was angry at them and, and all, you know, all these people. I’m not terribly religious, but the prodigal son kind of story. That's what, that's kind of what I felt, you know, seeing my dad. Steven: And so we got him home and it's about three o'clock in the morning by this point. And we made this pallet of blankets on the floor by our bed ‘cause we just didn't want him to go anywhere ‘cause we were just … He was still tripping hard and we were just scared. And he was really in a really dark place. And I woke up a couple hours later, it's probably about 3:30, 4 o'clock, I woke up and he was gone. And I just freaked. I said, Liz – where do … I mean, I was freaking out. And so we looked frantically for him everywhere. And we found him across the street in a park. He was meditating under a tree. And so he's in a better place by this point and he has a little bit better experience. So it's like, okay, this is better. And uh, but we still brought him home and uh, we took care of him.

And for the next month he was in such a dark, dark, dark place. Me and Liz were both really scared for him and we just kind of nurtured him back to health. He couldn't go to school, he couldn't work, he couldn't do anything for the next month. We just kind of nurtured him back to health. And then he finally got on his way. But I think Matthew, I think that was rock bottom for you.

Matthew: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It was a really big, uh, big turning point. And I, I, um, I was experiencing psychosis. So I remember I had work the next day. I was working at this coffee shop and um, like everything was too loud and I, I was like done with the acid at this point and, uh, you know, everything. But…

Matthew: Yeah, yeah. I went up to my boss. I was like, I can't, I can't work today. [laughter]. And I think I actually told her that I, I had had a bad … I was like, yeah, I just did some acid. Like I just was not coherent. She's really sweet about it. She was like … I didn't get fired. I think she just told me to go home. And, uh …

Vic: I'm sure she appreciated the, the honesty.

Matthew: Yeah. So I, um, it was about two, a month and a half or two months, but I, I couldn't work. I, uh, at my parents' house, you know, it was … I remember even the first week or two, like it was hard to walk my dog around the block. And I was just like … ‘Cause you know, I had heard about LSD-induced schizophrenia or psychosis. And, we'd had some, you know … I've definitely had some family history of schizophrenia. So I was just like, I have schizophrenia now. Okay. Yeah, it was just really scary. Just having all these thoughts of like, I'm never gonna be able to go to college or like, fall in love or, um, yeah. And then, and really just feeling like I've messed up my life.

Vic: It took Matt about a month to come out of the psychosis he was experiencing. He spent most days laying on his parents couch because that was really all he could do. Slowly but surely, he started to feel like himself again. He was keeping a journal and eating better. And he turned to something that’s becoming more and more popular for folks in recovery that some studies say can make a big difference for people trying to kick a drug habit.

Matthew: I think I started watching yoga on TV [chuckles]. They had like a, a subscription, to Gaiam. It was like yoga and meditation. So I started watching this guy named Rodney Yee doing yoga, and I just started meditating and doing yoga. And that was, it just was like, I feel pretty good doing this. This guy had a great relaxing voice and kind of this whole guided experience. And I was just like, kind of the first time in a long time just doing something that – just for the sake of doing it and like, feeling good about it.

Then I started getting, you know, a bunch of books on … I'd always been really interested in neuroscience and, and, uh, psychology. So I started getting like, uh, books on like neuroscience and addiction and depression and like, um, just really trying to understand like, why am I feeling like this? Like, why am I feeling the need to use, and how do I just start to feel better about myself, like sober? Vic: Now you're in it, you're, you're digging this stuff. After everything – kind of the torture that you put yourself through, right? You know, in your own life. And now you have something that's really helpful and soothing and, and I guess calming, right?

Vic: Did yoga help with the mood swings?

Matthew: Yeah, it did. I think I still had some mood swings and mania, but I was just more like numb. Like, I think a lot of me like, had really tamped down a lot of that anger and just kind of got into the state of like, I'm just dissociated and kind of numb. Um, so it more felt like it was bringing me out of that like, okay, like I could start to feel again and, and, um, yeah. Dad, I don't know if you noticed me having mood swings. I think there was some times where I'd go off when you were Mom or stuff, but I think after that I didn't have like as much…

Steven: No, that started to go away at that point. Yeah. I mean, so when Matthew was 12, he was diagnosed with a mood disorder. The mood swings are always there, but at that point in time it really started to go down. You really started to level out. But you had to work at it. You had to get your sleep. You took your exercise seriously. You took your self-care seriously. We saw you reading all these books. I'd see all these book titles of healing depression and all, you know, and mood disorder and how to, you know, win friends and all that kind of stuff and all these books you're reading all the time. That was a real turning point for you.&nbsp;

Vic: Steven, let me ask you, since you're the expert really on this, a mood disorder, I know that's, that's … We hear that, you know, but I guess explain to other parents out there what that looks like. Uh, sure. When you have a child with, with a mood disorder.

Steven: So mood disorder is high impulsivity and low frustration tolerance, where you're more impulsive and you have a lower tolerance for any difficult situations: much easier to pop off, lose your cool in more so than most people. So that's high impulsivity, low frustration tolerance is basically all about what a mood disorder is. And Matthew had all those hallmarks. And so we had that diagnosis and we tried different medications, but none of that really made a big difference. It really wasn't the solution really had to go through our own process and yeah.&nbsp;

Vic: Well, and I gotta tell you, you described me perfectly and it's one of the reasons why I do this show. And let me explain because I – you know. Boy, there's so many hurdles in terms of access to mental health to begin with. Okay? Much less 20 plus, 30 years ago, right, right in small town Colorado, much less growing up in a Mexican-American family where culturally … right? Mental health, going to see a counselor, is not something that's in part of the culture. Like, that's something WASPs do. Right? And, uh, so I more than likely had an undiagnosed mood disorder because I had the exact same things that Matt went through. Uh, you know, the blowups, kind of the, you know, the … feeling persecuted by authority and kind of like telling him to F off. But then I also am totally honest, I never tell a lie, right. Because I'm just brutally honest. So many of us have these issues and we – you know, it's so hard for kids and for parents to have to deal with that.

Steven: Right. But there's such a gift too. And if you can work on the downside of it, the upside of that gift is amazing. I mean, Matthew is an amazing human being who's, who's really coming into his power and just living his truth. And he's not afraid to be himself authentically, but he's now he's kind about it and now he's considerate of others' feelings. Whereas before, that was the part he was missing. But he's still kept that authenticity, which I just admire so much about him.

Vic: So the good can exist without the bad.

Steven: Absolutely. It's almost like all those experiences just kind of burned away some of the character defects. So he could just, the purity of who he's always been and who I remember him as as a two year old and that joy that he has, he still has it. He didn't lose it. Matthew started really coming around. He, he started, he was really apologizing to his brothers for how horrible of an older brother he'd been. And at this point, his younger brothers, my twins were two years younger than them. They said, screw you dude. You've been horrible to us all these years and now you're getting healthy on me? Well screw you. And it took them like a couple years to finally forgive him. But Matthew was very patient. He took accountability over and over and over again.

One of my twins was talking about Stockholm syndrome for a while ‘cause he was just so scared of his older brother, you know. He just had to kind of kiss up to him so he wouldn't get hurt. And one time I remember hearing one of my twins, Craig, say, “Matthew, I know that you're better and I know that you've come a long way, but when you try to come hug me, I still flinch ‘cause I don't know what's coming.” And there was a couple years where that whole period of transition, but Matthew was just a rockstar.

He was really accountable. He was really kind. He was consistently gentle and apologetic. And that brought them around. It took him a couple years, but that brought him around. And then, this is a few years ago, one of my other sons is now working at a rehab center too. And he said out of all the people, and he's seen a lot of people in rehab, he says he's never seen anybody turn it around so dramatically and in such a short period of time as Matthew did. ‘Cause Matthew really did his own work to turn this around. ‘Cause he really wanted to change. He was at the point where he wanted it. He said, this is enough, I gotta do something.

Steven: Yeah. The willingness has got to be there.

Vic: I think that's a really good example of how the healing and recovery is not limited to the person with the problem, right? The whole family Yep. Absolutely. Is impacted and they have to heal altogether.&nbsp;

Steven: We have our own issues and we had our own, you know, family lineage and we have our own stuff and we had to work on our own stuff. So yes, it is a family issue. And we've all had to work on our communication and our own emotions and our own – how do we, how do we have conflict resolution in a healthy way, and how do we have healthy boundaries, but how do we, all that stuff that you have to learn, but do it without half healthy boundaries, without being a jerk about it and all that. So we've all, we've all had to work on that together.

Vic: It wasn’t easy, but Matt and his family put in a lot of work together to overcome the issues they had faced in the past. While he was mending relationships and really taking care of himself, Matt was also thinking about what he was gonna do next. After getting a college degree in outdoor education, he started working in rehab settings as a wilderness therapist and in more traditional centers. Matt started writing blog posts about his experiences. And in reading some of them, Steven asked his son if he wanted to write a book together.

Steven: And I talked to him, he's like, yeah, let's do it. And it's been a huge part of our own healing journey to be able to talk about it and to process it. And I think that our story has a lot to offer other families because so many families, we all have these stories, but we're all so embarrassed and ashamed to tell the stories ‘cause they're embarrassing. And just being able to tell these stories and know that these character defects and this dysfunction does not define us what it is to be human. It's a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful thing. And working through these character defects, you just get the gold that's underneath. So we can talk about the stories and realize that the stories don't ultimately define us. And that's been a real big part of our healing process.

Vic: Matt, what have you learned about your relationship with your father throughout this process?

Matthew: Um, yeah, I think just how reliable my dad is. He’s very stubborn and we butted heads a lot. I really appreciate just how genuine and honesty he is. And, and it's always been – we've been able to, to talk about and work through things. I really can't imagine what it was like, kind of like raising, you know, a kid like me. You know, I think that I'm definitely able to be where I'm at today because of him and my mom. I work with a lot of people without that kind of support. I kind of know where all these things can spiral down to. And I'm just, I'm really grateful for that safety net.

Vic: Steven, what advice do you have for families, dads, moms, who have their sons or daughters are struggling with, you know, mental health issues, uh, substance abuse issues because that father-son relationship is so complicated. You know, it's obviously – it could be very strong, it could be very emotional. And then, even in the perfect situation, right? And then you add, you know, add these other things that you dealt with Matt, what kinds of, uh, advice do you have there?

Steven: Right? So there's no one size fits all. You have to look at your own situation and do what you feel is right. And there's no, there's no right or wrong answer. A lot of times you just do the best you can, but through it all, the main thing is to remember your love for your kid. And are you coming from your own issues or your own defensiveness or your own emotional triggers? Or are you sorting through that and trying to keep the love for your kid in sight? And are you doing whatever you do, whether it's boundaries or trying to nurture 'em or let him let 'em off the hook, or you're … Whatever you're doing, are you doing it because of your love for your kid or you doing it because you're emotion triggered and you're, and you're defensive and you're upset. And always try to look at your own motivations and come from that place.

Matthew: Yeah, I talk with a fair amount of parents and do some volunteer work with teens and recovery. Um, and that's, that's a hard line of like, you know, when do I bring down the hammer on the kid and when, when do I really try to maintain that open communication honesty? And, uh, it, it can be hard ‘cause you know, you can either be too permissive and let these behaviors continue or you can alienate your kid. I don't think there's any easy answers. And you know, I think looking back, my parents just were trying to make the best decisions they could, you know, in some really tough circumstances.

Vic: Oh, thank you for that. And Matt, I'll give you the last word. What advice do you have for people, especially young people, right? Especially kids, teens, young adults who are struggling with some of the things that you struggle with.

Matthew: Yeah. Don't do drugs, kids,

Matthew: I think it's really easy when you're wrapped up in being a teenager and, friends and it, it just seems like the whole world. Like this is the world and, you know, nothing's ever gonna be different. I know that sounds cheesy, but that is just such a small part of your life. And you're going to meet other people. I think the biggest thing … I tell a lot of folks, um, in treatment and recovery is it's okay to be by yourself. It's okay to disappoint people. And, and I think a lot of like, my decisions came from being afraid of being alone or not being okay with myself. And I think really, yeah, if you want to have healthy relationships, if you wanna make good decisions, like having a sense of self, a strong sense of self and self-respect and self-love and like, um, yeah, just being okay to, to be the odd man out.

And I always felt kind of awkward, you know, in college too, of just being like, hey, I don't wanna smoke. And then it was like, hard to say no. I was like, I wanna belong, I wanna be cool. And it was like just this moment. But yeah, I think in recovery, like you're gonna have so many of those moments and you just have to be like, I need to put myself first. Yeah. I need to know that will get through this and there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Vic: Steven and Matthew Fisher’s book is called “Light Shines Through the Broken Pieces.” Learn more about the book at fishertransformation.com. “Back From Broken” is a show about how we are all broken sometimes. And how we need help from time to time. If you’re struggling with addiction or mental health issues, you can find a list of resources at our website backfrombroken.org. Thanks for listening to “Back From Broken.” Please review the show on Apple Podcasts. It helps other people find it.

“Back From Broken” is hosted by me, Vic Vela. It’s a production of Colorado Public Radio's Audio Innovations Studio and CPR News.

Our lead producer today was Rebekah Romberg. Find a list of all the folks who worked hard to make this episode in the show notes. This podcast is made possible by Colorado Public Radio members. Learn about supporting Back From Broken at cpr.org.

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Back from Broken

This is the story of how a father and son found recovery and healed their rocky relationship.

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